I recently had the opportunity to speak with director Trey Edward Shults in anticipation of the release of his new film Waves. We had a brief, enjoyable conversation about what kind of storytelling interests him, as well as some of the technical aspects of his filmmaking. And don’t worry, I was sure to ask him what you’re all dying to know: whether he considers Marvel movies to be cinema or not.
You can find my full review for Waves here. My review for his film It Comes at Night is available here.
You can listen to the audio of the interview right here on the page (posted above), download it as a podcast, or read the transcript below, which has been lightly edited for clarity, and due to the fact that I say "Okay," and "Right," way too much.
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The Forgetful Film Critic: I'm here with Trey Edward Shults, the director of the new film, Waves.
Trey Edward Shults: Pleasure to be here.
FFC: Thanks for joining me, man, I really appreciate you giving me the time. So, based on your feature films you've made so far, Krisha, It Comes at Night, and now Waves, it's pretty obvious that one of your main preoccupations is, like, family dynamics. And I just wanted you to talk about what fascinates you about that, like, exploring the inner workings of the American family, like what does that for you?
TES: It's funny because it always just happens organically. Like, it's not like, okay, I'm going to explore family in this way now.
FFC: Right.
TES: And it just – I'm curious if it keeps happening, but thus far, it just keeps happening, and when I have to think about it, I think it's just that family is one of the most, I mean, it might be the most important thing in my life, you know, one of the most important things in my life, and I also consider, you know, family's not just literally blood. Like your loved ones and the closest people in your lives, that's family, you know?
FFC: Right.
TES: And your family keeps growing in a beautiful way, but I think I'm fascinated by human beings, naturally, and the good and bad in everything in that and what's more fascinating than, like, a close group of human beings.
FFC: Yeah.
TES: Because they're all complex and they, especially a close‑knit group like a family, they have, um, fascinating relationships and stuff to explore, so I don't know, man.
FFC: I mean, obviously, family is at the heart of Waves, like your other two movies, but this one plays out on a much larger scale. In fact, I don't know if you saw, but film critic David Ehrlich likened Waves to Magnolia.
TES: That was cool.
FFC: Yeah, I was like, that's a bold statement but not without merit, you know?
TES: Thank you.
FFC: And while It Comes at Night was a big jump from Krisha, obviously, in terms of scale, those two films feel very hermetically sealed even though It Comes at Night is still bigger, but this one is even bigger. What – did that intimidate you or excite you as you were writing it and you realized you wanted to do that? And what made you want to broaden the world of the movie – the next movie you made?
TES: It was actually extremely liberating.
FFC: Really?
TES: I think because – I think by the end of Night, we felt, I don't know, just like tapped out of, like, hermetic, you know, like, chamber dramas, I think, like, I just felt tapped out of that and so – even making It Comes at Night, I was so ready to make Waves. I didn't know what it all was yet. I had broad ideas, but I remember that summer, Frank [Ocean]'s Blonde and Endless came out, and I was just driving around, listening to those constantly, shooting It Comes at Night, driving around to waterholes on the weekend and just dreaming of making this movie. So, it did feel, by the time, like, writing actually started, for a lot of reasons, but even just sheer practically, like, one location to over 50, tons of car work and it's like, feeling a whole character's world and not just treating the world as a house was really, really fun to do.
FFC: I recently read an interview you did back when It Comes at Night came out and you talked about how you thought doing post-racial casting was interesting but not to comment on it, let it be, but in Waves, obviously, I mean, you have – it's part of the story, you're focusing on a Black family, and the race is – very much comes to the fore as a theme. At one point in the movie, Ronald tells Tyler, his son, that they are not afforded the luxury of being average, they have to work ten times as hard as anybody else, because of the way society views Black people. I just want to know what compelled you to center that perspective and I think it's beautifully told but –
TES: Thank you.
FFC: – did you have any reservations as you were writing that as a white person speaking through Black characters at all?
TES: Yeah, it was – it happened very organically, because of Kelvin. So, like, Kelvin, we met on It Comes at Night, on the last film, and we loved each other and wanted to make something together again. And that's when we first started talking about this.
FFC: Okay.
TES: So like a year later I started trying to write and like you said, this couldn't – this is a story in America today, this is a Black family, it has to be specifically, hopefully, authentically a Black family, so I felt a huge amount of responsibility to do that with Kelvin.
FFC: Right, yeah.
TES: And it only – what happened was really organic and beautiful because it's also a deeply, deeply personal story to myself and my loved ones, so it was starting on drawing from that, but then as I was writing, I was talking with Kel, and we were doing these mini‑therapy sessions where we would just talk about our time in life in teens, you know, relationships with fathers, mothers, girlfriends, siblings, pressures, sports, school, anything.
FFC: Right.
TES: To where commonalities and differences in our experience, specifically growing up as a young Black man with a Black family, so it happened super organically and that's why it felt right because it was with Kelvin, who I love and trust, and that relationship's already established, and it was so collaborative and combining, infusing that with personal stuff on my side to where it just continued, like, I wrote a pass of a draft, sent him a script, he would get back – he would, like, we would go through it, like analyze it and study it like crazy, and he would give me a ton of notes like, "No, my dad and I wouldn't be like this. We'd be more like that. He'd tell me this. This is the conversations we'd have, or this is how I felt over this stuff,” and then I would go back and write more and then I'd send it to him and like, am I getting closer?
FFC: Wow.
TES: So, I – that was my first time ever doing something like that, and it's been the coolest collaboration of my life, and that approach just continued to build out with the actors and everything, you know? And what – whether it was more perspective and I would change a scene again or just from language they would use in a take and surprise me to perspective they would bring and I just wanted to let them feel like I'm here to listen and understand. And we're here to build each other up and make this beautiful thing that we all care about.
FFC: That's great. That puts me in mind of, have you seen The Last Black Man in San Francisco yet?
TES: Love that movie.
FFC: Very collaborative effort, obviously they had known each other a lot longer.
TES: Absolutely.
FFC: I want to get into some of the technical stuff. Camera movement is so integral to the way you tell stories, and I really connected to Tyler in those opening minutes, especially those round shots in the car as it just – it really connects the kinetic energy of the camera to, you know, the youthful exuberance of “anything is possible.” How much time do you spend mapping out what you want the camera to be doing in any given scene?
TES: Well, it is very important to us. For this, even, it starts with the script. There will be the aspect ratios are mentioned, the intent of the camera movement is often mentioned for, like, a moment like that. It talks about the camera spins 360 between them and everything. For me, it's really about making the interior-ness of the character come through in the camera, to where everything camera‑wise is motivated by where the character is at sort of head space, spiritually, emotionally, to where hopefully it's bringing you closer to their experience. So, for us – I have the best DP in the world, I think, Drew Daniels. We made every movie together, and we like to – we shot list like crazy, so we go through the whole script and shot list for a long time just to death. We don't do storyboards, but we shot list and talk about everything, and what the camera's going to do, what's the intent, where are we at this point in the story with the arc and where is the character at, and we just go kind of nuts to where it's like a second skin by the time we're there to shoot it.
FFC: Right.
TES: It can be all scrambled, all out of order, it doesn't matter, we know exactly where we are, what our intent is, and then if we're inspired, we can throw it out and do something better. Or we can react to an actor and let it evolve and change it, or some other – whatever. The environment or something will lead to something new. So, for me, it's – I love, love working that way and Drew's like my most important collaborator.
FFC: Well, you brought up aspect ratios, and I, you know, I have to bring that up. I didn't – like I said before, I didn't catch up with Krisha until this week, and the first time I saw It Comes at Night, I have to admit I didn't notice any of the aspect –
TES: That's great, that's awesome.
FFC: I read an interview, you were like, yeah, I like it when people don't notice. And you got me with the first transition in Waves. I thought – the first time it changed, I thought the projectionist had screwed something up in the booth or something. I was like, “What's going on?” And then when it goes to, like, Academy ratio –
TES: That's the real one.
FFC: He's clearly doing something here. So, I just wanted to know, you know, have you ever gotten pushback from money people, like, what the hell are you doing? You can't do this in a mainstream Hollywood movie?
TES: Luckily, no, because it's been A24, and they're like, do your thing.
FFC: Right. I wondered. I didn't know if – you know, if there's any production company that's like, just do what you do, then it's going to be them.
TES: Absolutely. I've been very lucky in that regard.
FFC: That's awesome. As far as the score, so, Trent Reznor and Atticus Ross did this one. And their score really gives the movie, like, the sense of foreboding, just almost from the opening cut. You worked with Brian McOmber on your first two movies. He's also very good. And I just wanted to know how you got hooked up with Reznor and Ross and what was the transition there, why you decided to go to somebody else.
TES: Well, it was really natural. At first, too, I had told Brian there might not be score for this movie because there's so much soundtrack, but it felt meant to be because Trent shockingly reached out to me. I got an email one day from his agents that Trent Reznor is a fan and wants to meet.
FFC: What do you do with that information?
TES: Let's meet.
FFC: Right.
TES: And I jumped on a plane and went to L.A. and had lunch with him and Atticus and was very nervous going into it, but then as soon as we sat down, it just felt right. It felt like the energy was really good, they felt like old friends, like kindred spirits, I had known them, and they loved Krisha and It Comes at Night and wanted to work together, and I was like, okay, that's amazing. I'm writing this thing. You know, maybe we could figure something out. Another thing was in high school, after I tore my shoulder wrestling, getting back into filming stuff, and I was in my backyard filming weird things and editing to Nine Inch Nails, so for that as well, it felt meant to be. Like, this is weird.
FFC: Yeah.
TES: So, I finally sent them a script but it had, like, close to, like, 40 songs embedded into it, and none of them were Nine Inch Nails or Trent and Atticus score, so I didn't know what their reaction would be. But they loved it and wanted to try to figure out where score could fit into this. So, it was organic and beautiful so I was like, yeah, hell yeah, let's do it.
FFC: So, there are so many beautiful transitions in the movie. That's – I think that's where the Magnolia comparison comes in. My favorite one is the one that takes place between the tragedy and then the aftermath of it the next day.
TES: Same.
FFC: I wrote in my notes as I was watching the movie that whole books could be written about that one transition.
TES: Oh, thank you.
FFC: Like, what is it, like, a three‑minute segment or something? It almost becomes like a dream state –
TES: Yep.
FFC: – to me. And ends with the harsh light of reality, the next day, basically. And there's also those beautiful pastels, just kind of swirling between. Did you have that whole sequence fixed in your head before shooting, or was that something you found kind of in the cutting after?
TES: Surprisingly, the heart of it, yes. Like the heart of, like, brother to sister face, you know, like these faces going to black. Even the script, I remember, had like a big – a gap, like, like the – like, we hold on Tyler's face and then, like, all this space and then it was like colors start to overtake the screen and then all this space and then we, like, come into Emily, but then it evolves. So, like, I had the heart of that, but then even how, like, Emily's coming through a tunnel, that was an accident. We were shooting the shot in this circular path where it was just normal daylight, like zooming out from her face and this same shot, and then we went into a tunnel, and then this light started going across her face and Drew started zooming out and we were like – we just shot it. Drew was like, that was the coolest thing I’ve ever filmed. What just happened? It was like an act of God or something. It was like, whoa, this is amazing.
FFC: Right.
TES: So, like, that will happen, combined with, you know, experimenting with those colors and stuff. And how that turns out, what we were shooting, lights and playing with it, and then I hope it feels – I hope it kind of feels like a spiritual transference between brother and sister or something and like a rebirth is happening. And then, that just keeps evolving in post, and you find the right music and all this stuff happens to where that – personally, that's my favorite transition.
FFC: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, I'm being told I'm out of time but one last lightning round question.
TES: Yes.
FFC: Blame Martin Scorsese and Francis Ford Coppola. Marvel movies: Cinema or not cinema?
TES: Look, I don't love Marvel movies, but I got to say, with some of – in Scorsese's essay, which I loved, I do think those movies have emotional stakes.
FFC: They really do.
TES: But you know, for me, I will watch The Irishman over Avengers any day of the week.
FFC: There you go. And my standard response is, I like the good ones.
TES: Yeah, absolutely. Exactly.
FFC: Well, thanks so much for taking time. I really appreciate it, man.
TES: Thank you, brother, it was a pleasure.
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A huge thank you to my friend Brynna Kelley for transcribing this interview for me. It pays to know a real, live court reporter/television closed-captioning professional! All I had to do was feed her cat, Lucy, for a few days while she and her husband were out of town for Thanksgiving!